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Andy@Schalke
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 14:58

I toyed with PEP at the start of the season, having trained up to pretty much 999.
My initial league game was a 9-0 win, so I thought, 'good choice!'...
But it has been pretty dire since.
Perhaps, you need to play a 'new' tactic in 'live' games (not just FRs to get to 999)?
That makes sense, although a headsup would be nice.
However, I decided to change back to FAP to see if I could recapture my winning ways and stay in the lge chase. My change constituted 'disruption', so that didn't help v  Gladbach.
This week, I stayed with FAP v Bayern. FAP normally does well v WBKs (possibly pinning the WBKs?), but I was 'away' and Bayern have a much better team than last season - so I lost. I can live with that.
If you play a pressing game against CAT, CAT has a big advantage! You're pressing high, and when you lose possession they counter-attack - classic.
Trying to decide whether to retry PEP this season - as I'm pretty much out of the lge running...despite winning every lge match last season!
I suspect 'winning' breeds 'winning' - so if you're on a bad run, it's tougher.
I feel your frustration! You have better players all over the pitch, so you feel they should be winning their own battles and producing a result.
Even the little changes, like playing an AM v TM, or BW v PM or CC v CF, and making use of fresh DYs with WD in FAS, don't seem to help - although, perhaps they do? Thing is, when you lose, and you can't think of anything you've done wrong - that's where the frustration comes from!
Maybe certain players are more effective if using a tactic they like? Be nice to know if Paul gives players a favourite tactic or 2? Perhaps Phil has hit a 'perfect storm' of great players playing a tactic they like with winning ways....
My problems are of my own making. I changed tactic, moved on players, started losing and finding it tough to recover...
Must admit, I think the system should be a lot more lenient when teams change tactic if they are trained up in it. If they're 999, then surely they're well capable? That would also mean that you can bluff and double-bluff your opponents. For instance, if I thought Phil was going to play CAT against me, I would definitely NOT play FAP! But then, he might guess that to be the case, and play something that would be good against whatever tactic he thinks I will play.
Anyway, I daren't do any of this really, because of the 'disruption' factor.
Andy.
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Phil@Watford
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 15:23

Andy@Schalke wrote:
I toyed with PEP at the start of the season, having trained up to pretty much 999.
My initial league game was a 9-0 win, so I thought, 'good choice!'...
But it has been pretty dire since.
Perhaps, you need to play a 'new' tactic in 'live' games (not just FRs to get to 999)?
Great insight in your post there Andy!

I don't think you necessarily have to play 'new' tactic's in 'live' games to get 999. 

However, you would have to build up the partnerships between your players in 'live' games? Too increase effectiveness.
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gary@chelsea
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 15:42

gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.
Hello , any info on this , think it may have got lost in Tom's Rafa Benitez style meltdown  Very Happy
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Andy@Schalke
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 15:46

gary@chelsea wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.
Hello , any info on this , think it may have got lost in Tom's Rafa Benitez style meltdown  Very Happy

That actually made me LOL!
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Phil@Watford
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 15:55

gary@chelsea wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.
Hello , any info on this , think it may have got lost in Tom's Rafa Benitez style meltdown  Very Happy
Hey Gary,

In leagues i play following are unmanaged;

ALKMAAR  VITESSE** since your chelsea... BRUGES
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Andy@Schalke
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 15:58

Phil@Watford wrote:
Andy@Schalke wrote:
I toyed with PEP at the start of the season, having trained up to pretty much 999.
My initial league game was a 9-0 win, so I thought, 'good choice!'...
But it has been pretty dire since.
Perhaps, you need to play a 'new' tactic in 'live' games (not just FRs to get to 999)?
Great insight in your post there Andy!

I don't think you necessarily have to play 'new' tactic's in 'live' games to get 999. 

However, you would have to build up the partnerships between your players in 'live' games? Too increase effectiveness.

I don't think so either - but Paul (being immensely thorougher) may have some criteria stored somewhere for a new tactic not quite being effective until you've played some competitive games with it!

True, my 'partnerships' have always been a bit pants, but they were also pants when I won Lge/CL/Cup/SuperCup/WCC for 2 seasons in a row! Nice-to-haves, but not game-changing...
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 16:57

gary@chelsea wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.
Hello , any info on this , think it may have got lost in Tom's Rafa Benitez style meltdown  Very Happy
Sorry for the ranting pal but I just can’t justify £30 every other week for something that frustrates the hell out of me and I don’t understand why. Think the enjoyment is sadly going.
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gary@chelsea
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 17:11

Anyone got their turn yet?
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Paul Hemmings
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Paul Hemmings

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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 17:25

Email turns all sent out.
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 17:46

Tactical stats from this season so far
system win% draw% loss%

slo 64-17-17
fas 53-18-28
whv 24-49-25 *
win 48-27-24 **
cat 62-12-25
sam 64-11-23
isf 38-23-38

these are the popular manager selected tactical systems and there wdl% 

whv* is always scewed because 306 teams use it of which 241 are unmanaged so players learn to combat whv very quickly and I tend to ignore whv stats.

win** depends a great deal on good distribution and long passing skills and when you factor in the teams that have the requisite passers their stats improve to 58-27-14 which is better.

60-66% is the designgoal% for each system and it looks like isf and fas need a slight tweak to get them back to the level of cat slo win and sam. So I'll look at improving both of those systems next week.
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 17:58

Disruption always causes a bit of confusion but the system is very simple to understand.

1) free changes to your first team each week * 3 any more than 3 and you will start to accumulate disruption at a rate of 1 point per change above 3. A change is considered to be made when one player replaces another. Changing an existing players position is not considered to be disruptive.
2) changing your main tactic also accumulates 1 point of disruption.
3) each friendly you play using the first team removes 1 point of disruption. The friendly team must be unchanged from the first team.
4) each full game you play ( cup euro league ) also removes 1 point of disruption.

Why do we have disruption ? so I can get all the team changes on file in one day of data entry.

No disruption in domestic or european cup games.


Last edited by Paul Hemmings on Thu 21 Nov - 18:06; edited 1 time in total
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 18:05

Tactical awareness is checked during a game and is separate from disruption.

Disruption doesn't affect players tactical awareness and if they have 999 minutes then they will always have 999 minutes for the whole game despite any disruption you may have caused.

I'll check the in game messages for disruption and tactical awareness as they may be causing the confusion.

There is a bonus tactical awareness value and it is reset every minute during a game and set to the current tactical system the team are playing. Players start the following game with a bonus in the last system they played in which lasts for the entirity if the game.


Last edited by Paul Hemmings on Thu 21 Nov - 18:57; edited 1 time in total
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 18:48

Paul Hemmings wrote:
Tactical stats from this season so far
system win% draw% loss%

slo 64-17-17
fas 53-18-28
whv 24-49-25 *
win 48-27-24 **
cat 62-12-25
sam 64-11-23
isf 38-23-38

these are the popular manager selected tactical systems and there wdl% 

whv* is always scewed because 306 teams use it of which 241 are unmanaged so players learn to combat whv very quickly and I tend to ignore whv stats.

win** depends a great deal on good distribution and long passing skills and when you factor in the teams that have the requisite passers their stats improve to 58-27-14 which is better.

60-66% is the designgoal% for each system and it looks like isf and fas need a slight tweak to get them back to the level of cat slo win and sam. So I'll look at improving both of those systems next week.
Thanks Paul, very interesting to see that FAS is underperforming and needs looking at.

Am I right in thinking each formation has its positives/strengths and negatives/weakness?
All are on a par if used correctly?  There is no set system like rock, paper, scissors (that some managers suggest) that for example CAT would always beat FAS everytime, but FAS would always beat WHV etc, it just depends on each individual setup, home advantage things like that as well?
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 19:29

The effectiveness of any tactical system you choose depends mainly on the players that are using it and the opposition players that are playing against it. For instance the players using it can make mistakes if they are not at over 900 minutes or youve disrupted them and players defending against that system can read what is going to happen and intercept an action.

Home advantage effects players motivation and confidence for a game doesnt affect tactics.

The tactical awareness chart that is shown on the training ground report is used by both attacking and defending players although atm the values for players who have learnt from playing against a system arent shown.
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 19:35

gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.

Apologies Gary I totally missed this, I'm doing it now and I'll email you the list later tonight.
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 19:44

Paul Hemmings wrote:
The effectiveness of any tactical system you choose depends mainly on the players that are using it and the opposition players that are playing against it. For instance the players using it can make mistakes if they are not at over 900 minutes or youve disrupted them and players defending against that system can read what is going to happen and intercept an action.

Home advantage effects players motivation and confidence for a game doesnt affect tactics.

The tactical awareness chart that is shown on the training ground report is used by both attacking and defending players although atm the values for players who have learnt from playing against a system arent shown.

How long does it take for a player to learn playing against a different system? The more common a formation I guess takes less time to one players don’t play most weeks? 
Is it a case of racking up the minutes similar to learning to play a new system?
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 19:46

900 game minutes for full defensive understanding, only accumulated in first team games.

You might like to know 116 teams play fas but only 8 play cat.

So if a player is on the pitch for the last 20 minutes and the opposition have the ball for 10 of those minutes and play any of the fast tactics then he'll accumulate 10 minutes of experience against fast.
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 19:58

Fast has traditionally been the most popular tactical system and last time I checked 32% of players were trained up in how to combat fast and only 12% trained up in how to combat counter attack. So at the moment I would expect CAT to be slightly more effective than FAS but that will change as more players play against CAT and forget about FAS so teams using FAS should be finding it harder to create chances at the moment, but even so 53% win rate is a bit low.
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeThu 21 Nov - 20:10

Ok I understand that, thanks. So atm there is an advantage to playing the lesser known tactics than the more renowned ones like FAS? Makes sense but could there not be a facility to see how trained your players are against formations, is that in the pipeline? 

Also, would it be fairer if we could improve the understanding against some of the formations in friendlies too? Based on only Watford and Newcastle playing CAT in the premier league, am I right in thinking it will take my defenders 3 seasons to get full understanding, playing against it 4 times a season or will they forget some of what they’ve learnt in that time playing against other formations? 

Not moaning, just trying to get an understanding of it and how to combat such formations? Trying to figure out if I’m better changing to a lesser known tactic for these reasons. 

Let’s be honest, I have benefitted from this more than anyone ironically. Whilst it has held Charlton back (FAS) I assume it has been a massive factor in helping Nantes (TIC) being so successful over the last few years?
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gary@chelsea
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeFri 22 Nov - 7:39

Paul Hemmings wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.

Apologies Gary I totally missed this, I'm doing it now and I'll email you the list later tonight.

Cheers Paul received ok , I will have a look through and see if any team names I like the look of , do you have any recommendations?
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeFri 22 Nov - 8:35

gary@chelsea wrote:
Paul Hemmings wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.

Apologies Gary I totally missed this, I'm doing it now and I'll email you the list later tonight.

Cheers Paul received ok , I will have a look through and see if any team names I like the look of , do you have any recommendations?

If its new players for Villa you are looking to nurture then I'd go for Belgium, Holland or France but only because quite a few of those nationalities do come to Britain in real life and that may prove advantageous. Dont forget you can 'NEW' home nationality talent for 350k whereas overseas talent costs tribvals which could be a lot more. Problem with these 3 leagues is the competition, the dutch league only has alkmaar(4) vitesse(9) and bruges(12) free to pick from and with genk and ajax so strong you're unlikely to win much with any of those clubs. France is a bigger league ( 3 divs instead of 1 ) so you'd have a better chance of success in one of the lower divisions, somebody like toulouse(5first) or troyes(1second) might be a better bet but you'd be in competition with nantes and paris for french talent. 

Or you could go for a bigger club like Emelec in the ecuadorian league and keep them flush with money and 'NEW' any youngsters you like the look of but pay the higher prices cos they are most likely going to be overseas. Emelec have a 40000 stadium and some half decent players (none english legal ) currently are 6th behind runaway leaders barselona who are the only club managed.

Or go for Zamalek in the egyptian league, 75000 stadium and therefore good income, top of the table, no other managers in this league 1 english legal player already.

Hope that helps abit.
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Andy@Schalke
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeFri 22 Nov - 16:45

So, is there nothing we can do to prepare against a tactic?
And, was I wrong in saying that a pressing game will get caught out by a counter-attack?
Surely, the tactical system being used has pluses/minuses when used against other tactical systems?
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeSat 23 Nov - 7:42

Andy@Schalke wrote:
So, is there nothing we can do to prepare against a tactic?
And, was I wrong in saying that a pressing game will get caught out by a counter-attack?
Surely, the tactical system being used has pluses/minuses when used against other tactical systems?
Match Practice training trains all defensive awareness slots of which there are 25 by 10 minutes each usage. The Experience trainer ( usually an older player as detailed in your feedback ) adds a further 5 minutes to every slot each week amongst other things. If you chose MP override code youd get 10*15 = 150 minutes for each slot so eight weeks of MP override training would net all your players 900 minutes and full understanding.

Very astute and sensible observation and you are not wrong.

If you stick to the right player positions for your chosen tactical system then yes each system is stronger or weaker against any other system. For instance slow is poor against any system using a targetman cos it doesnt use an anchorman. wingbacks is poor against anything using wingers and so on. If you use a bespoke lineup for instance in slow you could swap out your striker for an anchorman then you can combat some of the disadvantages but you loss effectiveness going forward, so the choice is yours.

Tactical Awareness Experience is accumulated only in first team games and players who've been playing first team games longer, usually the older players, will have accumulated more defences against tactical systems. So for systems like fast and cat the level of defences will be pretty high on some of the older players, but for a new tactic like pep it will be lower.  How does Experience affect the games ? only when there is a matchup equality situation, for instance, CB ta=9 tackles versus CF ae=9 would be an equality matchup where the system would then check experience CB defexp versus CF attexp to decide who wins the tackle most of the time. When there's no equality for instance in CB ta=7 versus CF ae=6 then experience isnt checked and the cb would win most tackles. The greater the difference between ta and ae the greater the chances of winning the tackle.
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gary@chelsea
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeSat 23 Nov - 11:42

Paul Hemmings wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Paul Hemmings wrote:
gary@chelsea wrote:
Hi Paul

Could you let me know some decent feeder clubs that are available, as that seems the only way I am going to be able to get some new players and hope they sign for an English club in real life.

Apologies Gary I totally missed this, I'm doing it now and I'll email you the list later tonight.

Cheers Paul received ok , I will have a look through and see if any team names I like the look of , do you have any recommendations?

If its new players for Villa you are looking to nurture then I'd go for Belgium, Holland or France but only because quite a few of those nationalities do come to Britain in real life and that may prove advantageous. Dont forget you can 'NEW' home nationality talent for 350k whereas overseas talent costs tribvals which could be a lot more. Problem with these 3 leagues is the competition, the dutch league only has alkmaar(4) vitesse(9) and bruges(12) free to pick from and with genk and ajax so strong you're unlikely to win much with any of those clubs. France is a bigger league ( 3 divs instead of 1 ) so you'd have a better chance of success in one of the lower divisions, somebody like toulouse(5first) or troyes(1second) might be a better bet but you'd be in competition with nantes and paris for french talent. 

Or you could go for a bigger club like Emelec in the ecuadorian league and keep them flush with money and 'NEW' any youngsters you like the look of but pay the higher prices cos they are most likely going to be overseas. Emelec have a 40000 stadium and some half decent players (none english legal ) currently are 6th behind runaway leaders barselona who are the only club managed.

Or go for Zamalek in the egyptian league, 75000 stadium and therefore good income, top of the table, no other managers in this league 1 english legal player already.

Hope that helps abit.
Hi Paul

Could I go for the Ecuador team Emelec , be nice to have at least one team to try and compete against in the long run
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Andy@Schalke
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PostSubject: Re: Season 30 Week 8 processing...   Season 30 Week 8 processing... - Page 6 Icon_minitimeSat 23 Nov - 14:25

Paul Hemmings wrote:
Andy@Schalke wrote:
So, is there nothing we can do to prepare against a tactic?
And, was I wrong in saying that a pressing game will get caught out by a counter-attack?
Surely, the tactical system being used has pluses/minuses when used against other tactical systems?
Match Practice training trains all defensive awareness slots of which there are 25 by 10 minutes each usage. The Experience trainer ( usually an older player as detailed in your feedback ) adds a further 5 minutes to every slot each week amongst other things. If you chose MP override code youd get 10*15 = 150 minutes for each slot so eight weeks of MP override training would net all your players 900 minutes and full understanding.

Very astute and sensible observation and you are not wrong.

If you stick to the right player positions for your chosen tactical system then yes each system is stronger or weaker against any other system. For instance slow is poor against any system using a targetman cos it doesnt use an anchorman. wingbacks is poor against anything using wingers and so on. If you use a bespoke lineup for instance in slow you could swap out your striker for an anchorman then you can combat some of the disadvantages but you loss effectiveness going forward, so the choice is yours.

Tactical Awareness Experience is accumulated only in first team games and players who've been playing first team games longer, usually the older players, will have accumulated more defences against tactical systems. So for systems like fast and cat the level of defences will be pretty high on some of the older players, but for a new tactic like pep it will be lower.  How does Experience affect the games ? only when there is a matchup equality situation, for instance, CB ta=9 tackles versus CF ae=9 would be an equality matchup where the system would then check experience CB defexp versus CF attexp to decide who wins the tackle most of the time. When there's no equality for instance in CB ta=7 versus CF ae=6 then experience isnt checked and the cb would win most tackles. The greater the difference between ta and ae the greater the chances of winning the tackle.

Thank god! I'd have been very disappointed if that wasn't the case.
I should have kept the faith!!!
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