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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeFri 22 Jul - 22:48

As newly appointed Head of Ethics (appointed by Rich anyway) I would like to ask opinion on a matter that has troubled me the last few days.

I had a deal suggested to me by a manager, who will remain unnamed, that appealed to me. I accepted his offer and wrote it down on my turn.

We had talked about the two players previously and knew that each other was interested in the other manager's player.

The two players in question, are both fairly young, good potential, but also needing a review. The deal was a straight swap, player for player, which seemed a fair deal and still does in my eyes.

Like I said I wrote the deal down on my turn and was waiting for wage rating and ref numbers as is the norm. These never came and I sent my turn with a little note to Paul asking for the deal to still go through without this info. I assumed the other manager had just forgotten to PM me back.


What happened next upset me at the time, but having thought about it, not sure if it is just part of the game and I am being a little naive. Basically, the other manager did PM me and said he wanted to pull out of the deal.

His reason was that he had spoken to Paul and had been informed that the player he already had would get a better review than the player he would receive, who Paul does not rate that highly.


Now we all know as Paul has the final say on reviews, then ultimately it is down to his opinion which players come out looking good and which don't.

My question is, is it fair that this manager rang Paul and basically asked for a verbal review before committing to buying the player. Am I naive in thinking that I am responsible for buying and selling players and all the judgement on buying these players is on my shoulders, not Pauls.

As Paul didn't rate my player, the other manager wanted to pull out and did so, which to be fair he had every right to do, albeit a little late.

I wasn't happy at the time and felt let down by this manager, and the way he went about it. But he is obviously just looking out for his best interests, and maybe I am in the wrong for going off at him?

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the whole debacle?

Is it ethically correct?

Does anyone care?

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Rob@Barcelona
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 9:23

Just to fill out some of the details on this issue. I am the other manager in question. The deal was a proposed swap between Ganso (my player) and Nuri Sahin (Tom's player). The timelines are important here. Firstly Tom proposed a deal involving me giving him Ganso and cash/another player for Sahin. The he asked me to wait over the weekend as he had other offers and wanted to see what was happening. On Tuesday he asked to do a straight swap and sent me Sahin's details. At no time had I actually said let's do this and write it in. Tom then sent me a message on Wednesday saying he had written in the deal and sent his turn. I responded to him on Thursday before mid day (so not idea why this is a little late) saying that I didn't want to do the deal. So my first point is that I believe Tom jumped the gun in writing the deal in and sending his turn off on a Wednesday especially without me specifically saying go ahead. On a brighter note he can easily mail or call Paul and fill the 2 turn spaces with something else.

Secondly and on to Tom's main complaint. I certainly did ask Paul's opinion on the players. I asked him why someone as good as Sahin (I believe he's a good payer) hadn't been rated higher than he currently is. Paul gave me his views and that helped me in my decision making process. At the same time I also asked 2 other managers their opinions and they gave the same view. The way I see this is that I used a resource to help me make decisions. It's a resource that's freely available to everyone who plays the game and if you decide not to use it then you're putting yourself at a disadvantage and are an idiot. If it was a case that it was something only available to me and it gave me an advantage over everyone else then I can see Tom's point but that's not the case. My personal view on this and Tom has clarified it in his PM's to me afterwards (which I have to say seem to have been worded by a 6 year old girl) is that Tom knew he had a player that wasn't going anywhere fast. He saw the opportunity to do a deal that would benefit him and his club (which I have no objection to and fully endorse) but the had a tantrum when I did my homework and decided to pull out of the deal. Essentially his issue is that he was on to a good thing which didn't come off and now he's upset. Fair enough but making a drama out of not getting your own way and complaining because someone else does research? There is no ethics question here at all. And it terms of feeling let down, I think that if I were to post Tom's PM's to me then everyone would see that I should be the one who feels a little let down. So Tom if you feel your PM's are fit for public consumption then let me know.
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:07

Thanks for your views Rob. Although I was actually after some different opinions on the subject.

Think the insults were a little unnecessary. Maybe I am an idiot and as eloquent as a six year old girl, but that's just me. Don't want the forum to turn into a slanging match.

I only felt let down as you already knew that I was sending my turn weds pm, and told me Tuesday night that you would send me ref numbers and wage ratings on wed am. I took this as agreeing to the deal.

I agree that doing 'research' is an option, but not something I do myself. I see it as playing a game on football manager/champ manager, losing, pressing alt+del, then playing it again a different way!!

Anyway, we agree to disagree, that's fine. Just wondering what other peoples opinions were.
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:22

Interesting one.

If I had done a deal with someone, and then they consulted Paul, and pulled out of a deal based on Paul's opinions of the player, I would be livid to be honest. In my eyes, we play the game on a level playing field, and whilst obtaining opinions on players from fellow managers is fine to me, I would seriously question anyone 'running a deal past Paul'.

I would have no objections to people talking about players to Paul, when reviewing their own etc etc. But I dont think that asking Paul his opinion of a deal should be allowed in any way. I'm not saying this is what you did Rob.

On the flip side, I always think that a deal is 'confirmed' so-to-speak, when the player numbers are exchanged. Until then, I've always viewed as 'awaiting confirmation'.

"It's a resource that's freely available to everyone who plays the game and if you decide not to use it then you're putting yourself at a disadvantage and are an idiot" - This is, in my humble opinion Rob, not the best thing for the game. Can you imagine the state of this game if everyone starts ringing Paul every two minutes to run deals past him?. Nobody will ever make a mistake, nobody will ever get the 'better end' of a deal, nobody will make a bad signing. I would argue that it's an insurance policy that whilst I agree is freely available for anyone to use...it shouldnt be.

Tom is a mardy sod granted, and I'm the first in line to pick an argument with him when I can. But I can see why he's annoyed IF...and it's a big IF, the deal had been confirmed.

If the deal hadnt been confirmed, then Thomas has jumped the gun and Rob is entitled to do whatever he likes.

I think you should be able to ask Paul his opinions on players...but I would suggest that asking Paul to directly compare two players that you're looking to exchange is questionable to say the least.

So...in summary. You're both wrong, and you're both right.

Hope I dont offend either of you with the above...just my opinions.

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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:23

Well, to speak only for myself as it seems the best way - last year I sold Kim Kallstrom to Colin for 8 million - I told him he might be able to review him to 9797 - though knowing that i'd already spoken to paul - and tried to review him on my turn aswell - that paul would review him no further than a 9595. So, maybe that was cheating? Where's the ethics in that? or am I just being opportunist and shrewd by taking advanage of another manager's naievity?

I don't really see what the problem is phoning paul and asking for a second opinion. Sure, his opinion will dictate the ratings of a player in their CURRENT state. and that point should be underlined. What his opinion does not dictate is what will happen in the FUTURE. Sahin could go on to have a fantastic season for his club and then Paul's opinion changes and decides Sahin should be a 9999. Maybe you wouldn't be feeling so disgruntled and ethically cheated out of a deal then Tom?! Smile

All i'm saying is, wait and see what happens in the future? Just because paul's immediate opinion is that he is no better than XX/XX rating doesn't mean that it won't change in the future. I did find it a little odd myself that you buy Sahin one week and try and sell him two weeks later? why? If he is as good as reports are saying on the internet etc then I really feel Tom that its 7-8m well spent on your part and that you should hang on to him until his value is at a premium, so why offload him so fast? he really could be a 99/99 i think once he gets himself in the Real Madrid first team, so my opinion is you should hang on to him rather than sell him anyway.

I would imagine Paul's opinion is as it is because he's just moved to a massive club and he wants to see how he gets on rather than review him blindly without seeing him properly? I'm not going to get involved in the whole ethics debate to be honest because, the way I see it, whether Paul is GM or not opinion is just opinion. People's opinions change. If you buy Football Manager every year then you'll know that they change their ratings every year. Last year Sahin was pretty average, this year he's amazing. The same goes here really. Next year Paul might think he's pure class. Things change in football and I don't think you cana actually hold it against anyone for having, or sharing, an opinion when an opinion can never be anything other than what it is at the current time that the opinion was asked for.
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:33

Stuart@Roma wrote:
Well, to speak only for myself as it seems the best way - last year I sold Kim Kallstrom to Colin for 8 million - I told him he might be able to review him to 9797 - though knowing that i'd already spoken to paul - and tried to review him on my turn aswell - that paul would review him no further than a 9595. So, maybe that was cheating? Where's the ethics in that? or am I just being opportunist and shrewd by taking advanage of another manager's naievity?

Don't like this practice Stu tbh. Naughty in my eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:33

Stuart@Roma wrote:
Things change in football and I don't think you cana actually hold it against anyone for having, or sharing, an opinion when an opinion can never be anything other than what it is at the current time that the opinion was asked for.

very true. And the most sensible thing said to date.
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:51

Thanks for the input guys.

Appreciate the thoughts.

Rich - In response to your thoughts, I can confirm that Rob never said it was a done deal. All that was exchanged was that I asked for Ganso's details when I sent Sahins details, after Rob asked the question of a straight swap and I accepted (to which Rob never responded). His response was that he was busy at work and couldn't get to the details so would send them in the morning. Will was witness to me checking my inbox every five minutes throughout the next day!! So I suppose, I just assumed that the deal was agreed. I apologised to Rob for the misunderstanding, via PM, and my naivity but had it thrown back in my face.

I don't want to get into discussion about our deal, as it seems our ideas of the 'handshake' on a deal happens at different times. Thats fair enough, you live and learn.

Stu - I scouted Sahin and saw he was available for 7.5m. I decided to buy him as I thought it would be a quick way of making money, as he is worth more in my eyes potentially. Whether I could get a better player suited to my club or more money, thats just the way I am looking to do some deals with Santos. Also he is turkish which doesn't really fit with my squad in Brazil. However saying all that, I am not going to be upset if I have to keep him, like you said he could turn out to be a great signing for me and he will do a great job in my midfield. He plays for Real Madrid for gods sake, I'm not going to turn down any Madrid players for Santos!!

All this post was about was to see what other managers thought of ringing Paul, thats all. Didn't want to get into the details of my deal with Rob and actually left him anonymous at the beginning. This post isn't to see who is right or wrong, just to see what other managers think.
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:56

Rich - I agree its naughty and tbh thats the only time that ive done it, but whose to say anybody should listen to my opinion that a player could be a 9797? and just because I review him and fail whose to say paul might change his mind?! so i think i was just being opportunist. manager's buy shit players in real life on the back of bad advice so why not this game Smile

anyway yeah....back to the point basically opinions change so i dont think you can take them as a given anyway. I think tom has a very good player on his hands if you ask me and if he just hangs onto him for a little while it'll turn out to be excellent business.

and Rich is spot on in his post that a deal is only a deal when numbers are exchanged and the words "deal" or "i'll go for that" or in Gaz's case "fuck it lets do it!!". Anyway, I was buying Alvaro Perreira off Rob a couple of turns back, then he goes and plays a blinder at the Copa America and Paul is raving about him during a phone call he made and decides to keep him and shift him to inter. was I upset about it? no. should I be upset about it? absolutely not. because nothing was confirmed or verbally agreed. should I be upset that paul shared an opinion with rob? no.

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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 12:57

Tom@Charlton wrote:
Stu - I scouted Sahin and saw he was available for 7.5m. I decided to buy him as I thought it would be a quick way of making money, as he is worth more in my eyes potentially. Whether I could get a better player suited to my club or more money, thats just the way I am looking to do some deals with Santos. Also he is turkish which doesn't really fit with my squad in Brazil. However saying all that, I am not going to be upset if I have to keep him, like you said he could turn out to be a great signing for me and he will do a great job in my midfield. He plays for Real Madrid for gods sake, I'm not going to turn down any Madrid players for Santos!!

ok. cool. you should defo keep him.
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 14:53

It's true I think the refresh button probably got worn out during the coarse of the morning

I'd be brassed if I missed out on a deal in that way tbh

But It does sound like a bit of a mix up with no intention meant

Now if it had been rich............why I orta
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 14:57

"ought to"...can be shortened to "oughta"
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:02

isnt it slang anyway so really can be spelt any which way how.


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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:05

Dunc, can you give Will the laptop back, you're making him look a fool.
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:09

didnt dunc manage sunderland in the game for a turn or two?
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:13

different Dunc...but there was one. We've been trying to get other Dunc into the game for a while...but he's a bit of a daft lad.
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:14

differnt dunc,

this one doesnt keep nicking riches laptop and phone and sending daft posts about leicster city being twice the size of athletico madrid.

and so it begins again lol
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:15

daft .....theres an understatement
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:19

leicester who?
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:33

lol
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 15:38

you surely can't call yourself a big club just cos you won the league cup in 1996 and your owner raised his 'lot' from dodgy gambling in the far east and buying an empire of thai strip clubs.
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PostSubject: Re: Ethics   Ethics Icon_minitimeSat 23 Jul - 16:24

i can see both sides of this arguement and they are both valid, Do i care....NO! do i want Nuri Sahin......Tom pm me Very Happy
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