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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 16:10

tom is right in that we have the feeder clubs that we have because maybe we see them more as second clubs than feeder clubs. and want the bigger ones aswell, unless you're me and you just fancied playing a couple of knobheads in league one instead of a bunch of nobodys in a league on your own. i think the seeing them as second clubs comes down to the fact that we are of course paying a turn fee for these teams and we've all said it i think on here countless times " i pay to manage so-and-so so why should they have more money/whatever than me just because they're a parent club "etc etc. words to those effects. so, my belief is that we all see feeders as second clubs as we are paying for that privildige. im not saying make it free or anything btw, just stating a fact and what i believe goes into our make-up of our attitudes to these feeder clubs.

maybe tom has a point about leagues being reduced highlighting the problem further now that people notice the gap in revenue and realise that our feeder clubs * cough second clubs * ( and i probably mean all of us here by the way not any one individual ) become disadvantaged and feel disadvantaged because we are paying to manage them. i guess thats natural. rich has already mentioned:

Rich@Leicester wrote:

I would find it a bitter pill to swallow if during this next season, I finish 3rd behind Barca & Real, and they get £25m TV money, and I get nothing!

i know paul made the leagues smaller, and i was one of the ones who approved of it when he said about it, because it would get rid of the chaffe among the lower divisions - which there was a lot, especially in italy and some of it playing in the top flight. and getting rid of it meant paul could spread the best leftovers from those sides to the other unmanaged clubs and i think it has made some small difference to some of the unmanaged clubs, aswell as a sudden wealth of players available from former league clubs.

anyway, im droaning on now but maybe there's scope for their to be a Serie B and for their to be a Segunda Liga. not sure its worth having a second division outside those two european countries as there generally are'nt more than 3 or 4 decent teams in most other countries except germany, maybe france. tbh though, if Second leagues did come back in just certain setups like spain and italy then i think it needs to be harder for the 'feeder clubs' - and weaker unmanaged clubs - to elevate into the top division. what i'm saying is, maybe only the top team and bottom teams exchange places each season in such a setup ( outside england this is ). so, if a feeder team does promote to a top division then they have really earnt their cheddar. i just dont beleive you'd honestly ever have 24 good, competitive teams in italy or spain - not enough really for 3 teams to relegate and promote each season.

Of course i'm going to say this you might think cos Roma currently occupy a 'potential' relegation position but i'm just being totally honest when i say that if roma were in Serie B then i'd be bored out of my fucking brains and go another year without talking to anybody. it doesnt necessarily bother me that much to play their, but lets face it there's no human managers their so where is the competition? you might say its a fate that i'd deserve and i'd go along with that but the gulf between Serie A and B before was always massive.....i dont know what solution their could be to make sure the league had some strength. maybe a Serie B and a Segunda Liga could have just 6 teams in them ? All i know is im not paying £200 a year to twiddle my thumbs.


Last edited by Stuart@Roma on Fri 26 Aug - 16:30; edited 4 times in total
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 16:12

whoops, sorry that's a bit of a long one. ' thats what she said '.....
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 16:34

Some good points in there Stu.

Can I just address your point of it being harder for feeder clubs than parent clubs to achieve something.

The point is, it's already considerably harder given the lack of takeovers, sponsorship and overdrafts....all of which I think are fair enough.

Here's a good example. I'm in the championship next season along with Gaz, and hopefully Tom and Jamie...which if it is the four of us, will be a super divsion.

Now. If Iain decided to get a championship feeder club, let's say.....QPR....does anyone here honestly think I'd have a problem with Iain's feeder club competing with my parent club?. Of course I wouldnt. If he can build a side out of Under 24's from Madrid and whatever he can pick up on a championship clubs budget..then good for him and the division is better for it!. We're not exactly over-run with managers here are we? One of the biggest irintants we've all had over the years is playing piss poor unmanaged sides, surely if people want to have second teams, to make as competitive as possible, then we should be encouraging it...which is where performance related money comes in.

Everything should be performance related in my book, feeder clubs shouldn't be banned from overdrafts, or banned from sponsoring their stadium... absolutely everything else is this game is based on performance, why should well-run feeder clubs be excluded?

If you cock up you feeder club, asset strip and play the financial merry go round to benefit your parent...then your feeder will soon suffer.


I'd love to hear Iain or Matt's view on their being 3 feeder clubs in Spain, and given the difference in squads, prize money, attendances, tv revenue, sponsorship etc, between Real & Barca....and Betis, Sevilla & Bilbao....how much of an issue do you guys think it is?

It's my bet that they would prefer some competition....for those of you not in Spain..

the table reads like this...

Barcelona - 54
Real - 52
Celta Vigo - 29
Valencia - 28
Atletico - 28
Bilbao - 28
Santander - 24
Gijon - 22
Mallorca - 21
Betis - 21
Zaragoza - 20
Sevilla - 21


Does anyone think feeder clubs should still be hampered?

Jamie took Ancona to Serie A last season...as a feeder club...and got £25m. Fair play, happy.

I would have got Chievo to Serie A this season...but moved to Spain on the understanding that it would be top flight anyway...and I get nothing.

Smug...no...bitter until it's resolved.
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 16:44

yeah that is true. im not saying make it harder than it is per-say btw, I agree its already hard enough and to say managing portsmouth has been challenging this season is an understatement.

my firm belief is paul should adopt something like the following system on how all feeder clubs receive income:

1) all income levels ( tv/sponsors ) are league position relevant. the higher you finish the greater the reward.

2) in order to get that reward then you must have no more than say a 1 milion or 2.5 million loss on your "profit for the year" from the previous season.

so, managers who manage their feeder club sensibly money wise and those who manage it properly on the field aswell get the rewards. those who do not suffer. if you make huge losses then you dont get any money. i mean....what sponsors would back a club running at a significant loss. feeder clubs certainly wouldnt get that sort of backing.

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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 16:52

maybe paul needs to rename our feeder clubs as "affiliate clubs" instead. i think he's kind of right that if we're more or less running feeders as second clubs then there needs to be some different paramaters. plenty of clubs have afilliates and usually are'nt far off having something similar to feeder club arrangements. i.e a lot of affilates will get first option to loan a youngster from the parent affilate and likewise the parent has first option to buy players off the affilate club.

i.e Bournemouth are an affilate club of both Tottenham Hotspur and Southampton in real life.
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Paul Hemmings
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 17:55

one of the problems has been the occasional dodgy deal last season where 2 or in some cases 4 managers have got together and transferred players between each others parent and feeder clubs with the net result that 25m has moved from each feeder club to one of the other parent clubs, which is totally unfair on everybody else, so by restricting feeder club income I restrict the impact of this sort of shabby behaviour. ( its very difficult to spot sometimes with deals being done over several weeks ) But on the other hand I want the game to be fun and enjoyable so in some ways im stuck between a rock and a hard place as they say.

maybe I should stop feeder clubs from buying from ANY parent club not just its own parent club, then they could have the same income streams as parent clubs, now thats an idea.
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 18:38

I would say that would be a good idea paul, tho it would really limit who the feeders can buy off? i think maybe still allow the trading of players under 24 (or under 21? ) between parents and feeders ( basically those from academies ).

so, a feeder can then only sign players over 24 / 21 from non-human teams? this way the only trading between human parents and feeders s is under 24s or under 21s.
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 18:46

i like the theory...again, punishes the feeder clubs that are well run though.

Why dont we keep the existing rules between parent/feeder transfers as I think they work nicely. And just introduce a sliding scale TV revenue, in the same way that the prize money is dished out.

It's realistic, and gives everyone a fair chance of being rewarded for a good job.

Is that too simplistic?
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 18:59

agree rich, if your feeder club has been performing well in the league then generally you are'nt fleecing them and doing a good job. paul could make it perhaps that feeder clubs that are making a loss for the year cannot sign players until they are showing as making a profit for the year? this way feeders are always encouraged to put their house in order and cant sign players until they actually are being managed properly. maybe your parent club should be financially stable aswell in order for the feeder club to be able to do business?
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 19:09

lets face it all paul needs to do to work out if you're doing an honest and decent job is compare you parent clubs profit for the year with your feeder club's profit for the year. if both are in profit then obv the manager is doing a really good job. if the parent club is making a loss and the feeder club a profit then that could be understandable. however if a parent club is making a profit and a feeder club is making a loss then that could indicate something dodgy to me, or worst case example being both making losses.


Last edited by Stuart@Roma on Fri 26 Aug - 20:00; edited 1 time in total
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 19:15

My parent club makes a loss every year. I make sure of it because of the tax bill in week 23. The tax man isn't getting a penny of it.

Feeder has made a massive profit this year.

Did you get that the wrong way round Stu, or am I a little confused again?

Surely a feeder should make a profit, buying cheap and selling on for more?
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Phil@Watford
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 19:18

The problem with that stu is it can be mis interpreted as Arsenal have made a -19,000,000 profit for the year yet im not in my overdraft. due to buying RVP for 30,000,000. im still looking at ways to buy a brand new School Boy accademy with Season ticket sales and sponsorships so id probs make a profit of -39,000,000 for the year yet my bank balance would still be Positive.
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 19:20

I am a little confused about this whole topic now to be honest.

Are we just talking about TV money?

I was under the impression that there were the following opportunites to get cash:

TV money
Stadium sponor
Shirt sponsor
Takeover
Prize money.

As it stands, for feeders I understand that the following applies:

TV money - Under discussion
Stadium sponsor - Not allowed
Shirt sponsor - Not allowed
Takeover - Not allowed
Prize money - Not sure?

Can someone confirm this please?
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 19:33

prize money allowed

sorry yes i actually got that the wrong way round. i've edited it

i think feeders should get tv revenue and it be league position related like prize money. reward those that are performing well. at the end of the day, if your league position is high then you've done well and generally if its a low league position you're either not doing that well at all or underperforming due to different priorities i.e investing in other areas other than players or maybe you're just working with what you've got.
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Matt@Barcelona
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 21:50

Rich@Leicester wrote:

I'd love to hear Iain or Matt's view on their being 3 feeder clubs in Spain, and given the difference in squads, prize money, attendances, tv revenue, sponsorship etc, between Real & Barca....and Betis, Sevilla & Bilbao....how much of an issue do you guys think it is?

It's my bet that they would prefer some competition....

I much rather have 3 managed feeder clubs in the league than just competing against 'Pep Guardiola' and Iain!

My view on feeders is that you buy talent in to your feeder to then hopefully sell to your main club or to another club to help finance the club for wages & future talent. An example i have at the moment at Flamengo is Oriol Romeu, newed him for X amount he has now moved to Chelsea and been reviewed this turn. He will in the future finance Flamengo either if i sell him to Barca or 1 of the managers who have taken an interest in him.

I am gutted that Flamengo have done shit this season, tho i can whole heartedly say that they have a better squad/youth set up than when i took over. To keep them afloat this season i had to sell Joaquin, Jeffren and Raul, but that's part of having a feeder club.

I'd probably be happy with whatever feeder clubs receive though i wouldn't want it to be made too 'easy'. What about the parent clubs paying the feeder clubs a set fee each turn to help support them?

Is it just Spain where Parent clubs (ie Real & Barca) get to play against other managers feeder clubs? Would be good to have definitive list of who's got which feeder club.


Rich@Leicester wrote:


the table reads like this...

Barcelona - 54
Real - 52
Celta Vigo - 29



If only it did...................

Swap the top 2 around Sad
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:25

the wages are cheaper in brazil are'nt they matt? or atleast, they used to be about half of what everybody else was paying, it used to be a poor economy league, maybe paul has changed that in recent years, do you make much money their in brazil?

i have considered just scrapping having a feeder club tbh. it cost roma 12m early on to keep portsmouth afloat by selling them a couple of players. tho that situation wouldnt happen again since feeder clubs can no longer go into debt. its really important that players at the feeder can be transferred to the parent and actually be of worth and benefit to the team either in the present or in the future, otherwise there really is no point.
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:31

feeder club league?

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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:33

To be fair, if we were all in the same feeder club league, we could all get the same money, and none of this would be a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:35

i think a feeder club league would be superb. two divisions. no issues apart from half of spain fucks off and leaves iaian and matt to play each other 22 times a season. maybe everyone has to be forced to take a team thats playing outside of a top division in the big 5 or a lower ranked top division sides outside of the big 5. still, that means everyone changing again....


Last edited by Stuart@Roma on Fri 26 Aug - 22:40; edited 1 time in total
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Tom@Charlton
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:37

Could be worse, they could be in Germany on their own like Jamie.

Could it be done?

Similar format to the schoolboy league?

The spanish league could be filled with more reality clubs like it was before.

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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:41

would be bloody great.

playing each other week in week out

absolutely dying to test Erikson, Fer, Wjinldium & co out against the world.

two leagues (or one if not enough)

End of season payment based on final league positions.

nice and simple what could be better.

im sure that would re ignite robs interest in Boca,

would be f ing marvelous



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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:45

possibly? but it needs 1) paul's approval 2) paul then having to relocate everyone's players all over again which i think might be expecting a lot if its too time consuming. 3) everyone needs to agree to change to a team thats either a second division or lower team from the big 5 or a shitty top flight team outside of the big 5. maybe south american feeders just carry as they are tho cos tbh in real life plenty of 'big' clubs in south america are feeders to european sides.

tbh, id be happy with bognor fucking regis. its only a team name in my eyes.
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Tom
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 22:59

ok but....what about newing players? the rule would be what.....do what you effin like?! or new from only the nationality of your club?
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 23:00

in which case im asking for palermo back. italian feeder in a feeder league works best for me.
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 23:04

Stuart@Roma wrote:
new from only the nationality of your club?

that one.

obviously, this whole thing depends on pauls approval, everyone elses approval and then whether or not its possible.

its just an idea, but i quite like the thought of it.

failing that im sure a feeder club cup is pretty feasible?
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PostSubject: Re: TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS   TV SPONSORSHIP AMOUNTS - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 26 Aug - 23:08

i think its a great idea. just have a feeder club league paul and shut the fuck all of us up. dont let any feeders buy from any parent clubs - only each others feeder clubs and unmanaged or new. how fucking stir crazy that would be? then have all those feeder clubs eligible for all the revenues as nobody would be able to cheat. halle-fucking-lujah
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